The Wall (in Derry)

Nov 2005 Rodders (Rodney Moore) has been in touch with Derry City Council and its representatives about the problems of using the wall at St Columb's Park. He has recently been turned away from the wall on several occasions and contacted the council as a result. This website gives a forum for his views and the inclusion of the following messages does not imply that the club or webmaster agree with any sentiments expressed.

From Jeff Ashe (Derry City Council) Your e-mail has been forwarded to me from the Council website. I am the Acting General Manager for Leisure and would be happy to answer your correspondence. Firstly may I say that I am sorry that your normal training regime seems to have been upset. I have enquired from the staff at St Columb's about the climbing wall and they have confirmed that it seems to be enjoying increased usage by various groups. The downside of this is that individual climbers such as you find that the available time on the wall restricted. The positive however is that more and more novices are getting interested in the sport.

In relation to the point you make that individuals should be able to use the wall in conjunction with groups, I would have my concerns that this is feasible given the size of the area concerned. Also as an instructor teaching a group, I would also have worries that my group may be distracted with activities of other climbers on the wall.

However I will contact Mr Martin Carlin, Duty Officer at St Columb's, to see if it would be feasible to programme in some time for dedicated climbers that would not be impinged upon by group bookings. Once again it may come down to an issue of finance, the group income as opposed to an individual fee but my initial thoughts are that if there are times that can be set aside and that can be agreed with the climbers, then we could progress this.

Once again thanks for your comments.

Jeff Ashe

Jeff

Thank you for your response.

A few points:

1 Regarding individual climbers using the wall and the size of the wall. what I was suggesting was that there should be a cap on how many people should be in the wall at any one time (which I presume there is for health and safety reasons anyway). If there is a group of 15 in the wall or a group of 10 plus 5 individual climbers the overall number is still 15. Therefore the size of the wall is not an issue.

2 Individuals distracting group climbers. This statement confuses me. In what way does having individuals in distract the group. Could you cite some examples of this? Individuals used the wall whilst groups were in for many years without any problems. As instructors take groups in walls and crags with the "distraction" of individuals throughout britain and Ireland (and indeed the world) without trouble perhaps your instructors require an educational trip to other venues to learn how to do this. Indeed another local instrutor who occasionally runs group sessions has no problem with experienced climbers using the wall during his sessions, indeed the members of the group find it benificial to talk and learn from experienced climbers like myself. Perhaps you or your instructors could come and observe these sessions on tuesday nights to see how groups an individuals and groups can co exist without the groups being distracted from their lessons.

3 Keeping a time free for dedicated climbers. This as a long term solution is unfeasible as both groups and individuals like myself are going to want to use the wall during peak times. As you mention finances, I assume that you are suggesting that as an individual I must match the group price to ensure that there is a slot free that I might use? Despite growing interest, climbers are still a minority group in the NW so it would be difficult to ensure sufficient numbers on any given night to meet the financial requirements of keeping a slot free. Effectively meaning that the climbing wall is now only available to group bookings and is no longer accessable to members of the public like myself. Where does this fit with the aims of the derry city council and st columbs park to provide leisure facilities to the public and promote sport?

4 You state that the growing number of groups is good for the sport. What then will happen to those members of groups who decide to take up climbing. Will they continue to do so when they are repeatly turned away as individuals due to the wall being booked by groups? I doubt it.

I appreciate your suggestions and I hope that a compromise can be reached to enable access to this public facility to all members of the community can be reached. I feel that the decision to refuse entry whilst groups are in the wall is at best petty and at worst an abuse of authority by denying access to a public leisure facility to a small group of individuals who have provided loyal custom to st columbs park.

Regards, Rodney Moore.

From Jeff Ashe (Derry City Council) I have passed your e-mail onto to the duty officer at St Columb's for comment. May I take this opportunity to dispel any notion that you have that the staff at St Columb's Park are in any way acting as petty. Comments of this nature are not constructive, not helpful and most unwelcome. If an individual or small group of individuals find that, for operational reasons they cannot access the wall at their chosen time, this is due to existing constraints placed on the hire of the wall. It is not an abuse of authority as you infer. There have to be rules and procedures in respect to the hire of any facility that is provided by Council. Using your analogy from previous correspondence, currently if you wanted to have a swim during a session of swimming lessons you would be refused access to the pool. Would you also see this as an abuse of authority? Clearly I would not. I would have thought that the purpose of entering into correspondence in relation to this matter was to remain positive and seek a compromise or solution to a problem you have encountered. Whilst recognising the comment you make about the small group of individuals who have provided loyal custom to the wall at St Columb's Park, I totally refute the inferences in the same (final) paragraph that you make. As previously stated I have forwarded a copy of your correspondence to Mr Martin Carlin, Duty Officer at St Columb's Park. Upon receipt of his comments I shall be in touch at a later date. In the interim Mr Carlin has informed me that, should you wish to meet him in respect to this matter, he will be happy to arrange such a meeting. Once again thanks for you interest in the climbing wall at St Columb's.

Jeff Ashe Acting General Manager Leisure.

Jeff, Again thank you fro taking the time to respond to my emails. Just to clarify, I was not suggesting in any way that the staff in St Columbs Park were "Petty". Indeed I have always had good relations with the staff there and intend to continue to so. Nor were my emails intended to be an attack on yourself or anyone individual, if it has appeared that way then I apologise. What I was refering to was the countless occassions over the past few years were I have turned up at the wall to find a group taking up half of the room, were the other half lies free and unused but I am turned away. I do find this petty and I stand by this. I am also offended by the remarks that individual climbers like myself are "distracting" to the group. I accept that some of the younger group members are interested in watching experienced climbers train but I don't think it is fair to penalise the individual climbers like myself for this. We are simply there to climb like everyone else and am angry that we are treated like unwanted entities rather than valuable customers. You mention that individual swimmers are turned away when people are a having swimming lessons but would you allow the pool to be booked all day every saturday and all sunday afternoons and also at short notice. I think that there would be considerable unrest amongst pool users if the pool was not available to the public on weekends and users had to ring up every time they wish to use it. This is the position I find myself in. I am sure as a leisure facility user yourself you would also find this frustrating. If the insistance is that the instructors insist that the wall is exclusively theirs during group times. Surely it is not unreasonable to suggest that certain times be kept free from group bookings during peak times. Such as after 8 or 9 pm for example and at least keeping a couple of hours free during saturday or sundays. It is extremely positive to see so many groups use the climbing wall and I hope this continues. I think Uel and your other instructors do an invaluable job of giving young people (and indeed of any age) an introduction to climbing. Indeed this was how I started out. but I don't think individual wall users should be forced out because of this nor do I feel I should be treated with any less respect or dignity than users of other council leisure facilities. I would be happy to discuss this issue with Martin, although at the minute I am restricted in when I can meet him as I work in Coleraine. However if he wants to email me I am sure something can be arranged. Though I must state that although I am a member of various climbing organizations and am happy to negotiate on their behalf, the views I have expressed to date are entirely my own as an individual wall user. Again I apologise if anyone individual was offended by my remarks as this was not my intention. I merely want to ensure that individual users of st Columbs Park climbing wall have the same rights as every other Derry City Council leisure facility user. Thank you for your correspondence.

Regards Rodney Moore.

Thanks Rodney. I will pass this on to Martin and suggest that he contact you and arrange a mutually agreeable time.

Jeff

The following messages and emails are from last year (2004).

I should point out that it is not Thursday night that causes a problem specifically; Martin Ward was unwilling to keep ANY block of time free for us unless we stump up the £14.50 for a one-hour booking. This was not clear, apparently, because a few people suggested booking a different night.

In my irritation at the difficulties encountered at St. Columb's Park, I went moaning to the council. I've just had a call from Martin Ward at St. Columb's and he had heard that I'd been "complaining" about the wall.

In short we've agreed that:

The Centre's instructor can authorise movements of holds in the wall provided he (Martin) is kept informed. I pointed out that he might get tired of this seeing as weekly/monthly movements are normal at most walls - as opposed to a change every 6 years or so.
We'll try to arrange another time when a bouldering comp for kids can go ahead - Stewart Magill will follow this up
We, the Colmcillers, will have to book the wall at £14.50 per hour if we want to be sure of having it to ourselves on Thursday nights. We could book it for, say, 8pm every Thursday; this would mean that 7 people would have to come to make it cheaper than each person turning up and paying for him/herself.

He was pretty well immoveable on point 3, i.e. he wants his £14.50 even if one person turns up, and he is not prepared just to keep the evening unbooked for us. This is annoying, but we can work on his terms provided we keep the numbers up. In short he's saying "we don't need climbers, we're more interested in birthday parties and scout groups". Personally, I'd love to build a world-class wall three doors up and take all their customers, but this isn't likely to happen for a while.

Please email me your views. I need some idea how many people are prepared to turn up and pay their share of £14.50 - bearing in mind that it might cost you a fiver if only 3 people come. Or could the club funds be used to even out the bumps, perhaps users could pay £2 each and the club could make up the difference and bank the profits if 12 Colmcillers come?

Pete

Donna Ryan wrote:

I think this is absolute *@!!locks how did this situation arise? What is a climbing wall for if it isn't for climbers? Mind due the club weren't interested in the wall until now so one can see the councils point. I'm in favour of not being in cahoots with the centre's instructor he clearly has his own agenda. Could we change the evening we meet, perhaps? I would not be prepared to pay more than two pounds for that particular wall I would rather go bouldering and have our club meets in the pub! ha ha! I would also not be a member of the club if a decision was taken to use my money (one of the few members that actually pays up every year) to subsidise an activity that in most civilised small towns is provided for by the council.

James (_Psyclone) Boyle wrote:

Talk to LIT (Letterkenny institute of technology). They just built themselves a lead wall and don't have anyone that knows what to do with it. Letterkenny isn't that far away, really... J

Phil Magill wrote:

Thats very disappointing but expected i guess. When i was a young'n in uni we had to book the wall on a wednesday night for 2 hours. Which wasn't a problem for the first couple of weeks until the numbers dropped, which i think will happen at certain times of the year. We had to pay even if we didn't turn up some weeks.

What about arranging another evening or is thursday the only time that suits people ? I'll do a deal for CCC'ers when i get my wall completed. So i'm proposing :

CCC members (with IMC membership) £2.00 (but they must step aside to allow climbers without IMC, priority on the wall)

CCC members (without IMC membership) £1.50 (one free cup of tea/coffe per session, leaving the garage and returning doesn't count for two sessions. The Irish will attempt any under handed scheme for a cup of tea).

non CCC members (with IMC memebership) £5.00 (the amount is unduly high i know, but then if they join the CCC they can get a discount and you can all talk about now great the IMC is and increasing the CCC numbers)

non CCC members (without IMC membership) free, with as much tea/coffee as you can drink and access to the toilet. Derry City Council employees will be barred.

Pete Cooper writes:

Hi Pete (A.K.A Nerdy Little T.)

Couldn't agree more, it's not the instructor's wall either but I guess if he's the main guy bringing in cash...it counts.

Brian (Wingman) and myself would probably be up for occasional Thursdays, dependent on commitments.

Rodders writes:

Well I obviously didn't buy any local papers the week that the staff of the centre bought the climbing wall from the public sector. In other words the wall is now off limits to the general public (who pay for the wall through their taxes/rates) unless they're willing to pay £14.50 for an hour to ensure they can climb when they choose to (does this include expert intruction?) or gather 5 or 6 mates and share the cost (which is hard for people like me who have no mates!).
What a &**@@ing load of sh!t@. I wonder what Tessa Jowell would make of this? Just &**@@ing typical of those &**@@ers at the Derry City council.
I also think the staff at the centre are being exteremely petty about refusing entry to individual climbers when groups are in the wall. Fair enough when larger groups are in but usually the groups are reasonably small and there is no reason for kicking people out other than to fuel his own ego. Mind you being vertically challenged, talentless, of below average intelligence and with a chip on my shoulder myself, I suppose I should empathise......

Donna adds:

I believe their has been some spat regarding who can and cannot change the holds at the wall ie. the instructor employed by the centre can change the holds and nobody else!

It is my understanding that the 'new' holds belong to the MCI entrusted to club on loan and are nothing to do with the council and therefore the council have no jurisdiction over them.

Surely having to cooperate with the council and work in a drugingley, soporific not to mention 'thran' manner (as is their want) is the complete antithesis to what climbing is about.